Archived comments from JabberWokky
I appologise for the inconvenience but please check your emails I have sent you an email. This needs sorting out ASAP. - keithwyness.
2009-09-16 23:50:55 You know, after the fifteenth or so time you posted that, I pretty much didn't need to get another copy. —JabberWokky
2009-09-19 15:36:05 Is there a mod running this site yet? I see the tomfoolery has not stopped.
Steve (not Lambert) —194.83.172.121
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Nope. It's odd... you'd think that people who were told there was about to be an arbitrator arriving would lay off the stupid behavior. It says something about their scope of vision. —
Evan 'JabberWokky' Edwards
JabberWokky, please can you tell me how close we are to getting an arbitrator. I notice that since our discussion John/Waterways has deleted my work AGAIN. When is his constant deletion of my content going to be stopped. Please advise ASAP. - keithwyness
2009-09-21 17:08:11 Hi Evan. I've created a page with different Liverpool city idents, (this is the name of the page), and am trying to rotate the pictures on the front page. I want them thumbnail, 300, left. Can you help? —ChrisGibson
2009-09-21 17:55:09 Thanks for that. Something very strange though... its changing the colours of the logos randomly. Very odd. Got any ideas? One of the stipulations of using the logos is that the colours can't be changed etc. Chris. —ChrisGibson
2009-09-21 22:47:24 Haha. Yes, the logos I put up were different colours, but not the colours that it was changing them to. They have to be the colours they originaly are. I don't get why the original picture would change like that. I'll try again now... —ChrisGibson
2009-09-21 22:55:40 you'll see when you click on the picture files they are different. —ChrisGibson
its ok, got it now. Chris.
2009-09-22 23:53:18 Hey. Whats this events system all about then? Chris @ FACT. —ChrisGibson
2009-09-23 06:11:32 Thanks Evan! Sorry I was MIA for a bit. I could explain, but it would bum everyone out. —SteveLambert
RE: WATERWAYS DELETION OF MY WORK ON THE LIVERPOOL WIKIS
once again I have am NOT deleting Waterways work, my version maintains ALL of Johns work and adds a small section of my own work. He is deleting mine so who is in the wrong!? I have absolutely no confidence whatsoever that Waterways could EVER allow my work to be left alone without vandalising. He has been banned from multiple Liverpool sites for his behaviour so what confidence do you think I have in him. Frankly I have no confidence whatsoever in your abilty to moderate either. I left the site as you requested in order to allow you to do something about it, came back on and ONCE AGAIN my work was gone!!! I would rather that both of our work is allowed to co-exist and people can take from it what they want but waterways is deleting through reverts.
Contrary to John/waterways/february29/save our docks/JohnMK's claims my work relates to a very real proposal to build a stadium for Everton FC or shared with Liverpool FC on Clarence Docks that was in a well publicised report (Liverpool Echo/Liverpool Daily Post/KEIOC/Kirkby Public Enquiry) by the Professor of Business at Liverpool University. This was a report comissioned and paid for by MDHC and NWDA.
Can I point out that there are NO plans whatsoever to run rapid rail to Liverpool Waters. There are no plans whatsoever to create and "outer loop" rail system. This is a completely made up and "wish list" project that Waterways has come up with and is completely unrealistic. He was banned from the liverpool forums of skyscrapercity.com for his behaviour when it was pointed out to him that to create the rail network he wants would cost over £1bn and would never happen....he lost his temper and started insulting people and at one point threatening violence. If my Central Docks work must be deleted then you should also delete the entire "Expanding Merseyrail" page as NONE of it exists in reality outside of Johns head! I REPEAT: THERE ARE NO PLANS TO BUILD RAPID RAIL SERVICES AT WIRRAL OR LIVERPOOL WATERS OR TO BUILD AN "OUTER LOOP" LINE. THIS CAN BE SEEN VERY CLEARLY ON PEELS WEBSITE AND IN ALL OF THEIR COMMUNICATIONS. I spoke to Mr Lyndsey about this personally and he said there would be nothing more than a "shuttle buss service". - keithwyness
Waterways is claiming that my work is based on nothing more than my own opinion. I have posted to you evidence that that is not the case. I genuinely don't get how you could come to that conclusion. I want my work to be put up and left alone, without it being deleted. What is it i've said that makes you speak this way? You asked for evidence I have given it to you. What do you want ME to do to resolve this so my work isnt deleted and so that Waterways is also happy? Please help me out here. - keithwyness
2009-10-06 02:14:45 Hi Evan, is there any way of putting a live chat section on the band members wanted section? Chris @ FACT —ChrisGibson
Mate you have got to ban waterways he will end up ruining the entire wiki site.
johnhuges
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another alias - Waterways
Think its time to let people cool off for a bit to see what good it does, so I'll give Keithwyness a week & waterways one for good measure of fairness. Seems we don't seem to be getting anywhere. If I suspect aliases, I will do the same for them. The currant climate is just not constructive enough. Hope this is ok with you but let me know if its not ok. Chris @ FACT.
Forgot to log in but last one was me. Chris.
thank you for re-instating my mebership here. I would like to appologise sincerely for any role I played in the recent problems, which I put down to being passionate about my work and the work of others. Please be assured that I will not in any way engage in any further arguements with Waterways on this site.
Please note that I have updated the Liverpool Waters and Extending Merseyrail wiki talk pages to alert you to new developments on NEW proposals for a station at Vauxhall and a stadium at Liverpool Waters on Clarence Dock, using renders and a designed masterplan. These renders and a doccument from 21century Liverpool, encouraged by numerous parties on skyscrapercity.com are in the hands of Peter Millea and Warren Bradley at Liverpool City Council, both of whom have been asking additional questions and are broadly supportive of the work as a proposal. They are also supoorted wholeheartedly by KEIOC as a legitimate proposal.
As legitimate proposals I would like to see this work included in both wikis. I will of course do my best to answer any questions....to not get into an argument with Waterways in any way....and to not say or do anything to harm the wiki or anyones editorial rights.
Thanks again - keithwyness
These CAD renders are not official from 21century Liverpool at all. It was done by one student encouraged by this vandal.
KEIOC is a fanatical group of philistine football followers.
This is a prank.
- Waterways
2009-10-24 14:51:30 jabber please could you take a quick look at the comments left on my username talk page. I am determined not to be dragged into an arguement and am determined to stick to a level of conversation that is collaborative and helpful. thanks. - keithwyness —keithwyness
I am determined not to allow prankish schemes be on these pages. I am determined to get banned for life those who vandalise these pages. - Waterways.
Jabberwocky there appears to be a stalemate again on the Liverpool Wikis where I want to contribute work. Waterways is deleting again, seemingly with complete impunity. On my username page he has said that he will not allow me to ever contributye anything to the Liverpool Wiki. I want to discuss whether or not my work and this NEW proposal will ever be accepted onto the relevant pages, or whether I should just accept defeat and leave the site and forget about it.
As for the other people posting on the talk pages, they have nothing to do with me. I have no other alias and this can be checked against my ip address.
Please could you give me an update on how things are going to progress and where we are at the moment. I will not be responding directly to Waterways at all and I have made efforts to stay in line with the rules here - keithwyness
These CAD renders are not official done by one student who wants to improve his CAD skills, encouraged by this vandal. This is a prank. The pages must remain locked.
- Waterways
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Why would a student's proposal not be included? It's a proposal from a member of the community of Liverpool, correct? -jw
There have been 3 proposals for a rail station and stadium at Clarence Dock.
In 2004 from the government agency the North West Development Agency and the previous owners of the site Mersey Docks & Harbour Company.
Skyscrapercity.com/21century Liverpool's proposal of which I have included renders.
....and I have an email from KEIOC, a campaign group who sent me an email containing a PDF of a presentation they delivered along with Trevor Skempton (stadium designer) and councilors Joe Anderson and Warren Bradley (Chief Exec of Liverpool City Council) to Peel Holdings regarding a scheme for rail and a shared stadium. - keithwyness.
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Keep in mind that even if it is just from you, it's a community proposal. This is not Wikipedia, this is a community wiki, and it reflects any aspect relevant to the community, not an arbitrary "must be published in an approved source". If there's a guy down by the docks with a dirty cardboard sign saying "My cat wants trains here!" and singing loudly about it, that's a proposal (and if he's down there every day, it would be a perfect thing to add to the wiki: quirky, individual and interesting). If there is a group of 7 year olds who put together a proposal for a class project and presented it publicly, that's another neat part of life in Liverpool. It certainly sounds like you have a collection of interesting proposals over the past decade, and despite my asking him several times, Waterways has never said that they are not relevant... he just attacks you or football or how "serious" the proposal is. If it came from the community, it's part of the community, and this wiki documents that community. Obviously his one complain that would be valid is that these proposals are actually fictional. As a result, he's likely to attack them as fiction. If you can provide links that reference these proposals when you write them up, it would go a long way toward ending this back and forth battle. -jw
Jabberwocky it would be great to finally resolve this issue, of course it would. A big problem I would have is that I have not retained links to everything that has been put on here and in any case links providing evidence of proposals, including press links, were deleted. I don't think it is practical for me to have to go through the hundreds of previous edits looking for exact links for a proposal from 2004....nor do I think it's fair that I should have to trail through the internet looking for work I have already posted and which I was asked to take down as it was not helping the debate. Other links such as KEIOCs proposal are email based and I do not have a web based link for something that was, actually, a report given face to face by councillors to Peel in a private meeting.
The way I see this progressing is quite simple. Waterways work would be retained in it's current format with nothing deleted or changed whatsoever. At the bottom of the page under a new subheading called "Historical and alternative proposals" there would be a section on the wiki highlighting the 2 historical proposals from NWDA/MDHC and KEIOC/Trevor Skempton's (eminent stadium designer) work. Also skyscrapercity.com/21century Liverpool's proposals complete with renders.
This could be at the very bottom of the wiki, completely seperate from Waterways work.
I think now we are at a point where it's not really in doubt that there have been proposals to put a station and stadium at Central Docks. How "official" are they!? Well they've been put forward by the main government agency responsible for regeneration in the North West, the former owners of the site and by Livepool councillors. Are they any more fictional, than re-opening long disused tunnels, of which there are no current, concrete proposals other than merseytravel saying they would look into it!? Certainly there is no plan or even proposal by MT to extend rail utilising an "outer loop". This is something Waterways and Watertways alone is proposing....and he is entitled to do so, which is why I never deleted his work.
When can we progress so that work from editors can go up without fear of it being imeediately deleted?
Respectfully,
keithwyness
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Actually, once Waterways deletes it again, at this point you've clearly offered to work with people, and answered all of his objections. If you could cite things, if he deletes it without discussing it first at this point, I'll lock him out from that entry, as he's engaging in unilateral editing (I am not the only admin here, so I can only speak for my views and intentions). That entry is not his property, no matter how much he sees it as his. He donated the work to the wiki, and it is now the property of the community, and he should not deny you your place in that community. Just — be honest. Dealing with a unilateral editor is one thing. Dealing with one who is accusing somebody of lying muddies the waters, so if you can show any proof, it really helps clarify the situation as one of you trying to add content and Waterways acting as an overzealous guardian of content he mistakenly believes is only his to edit. That's why I've been asking all the questions and trying to get answers (and why it is so frustrating when you both answer side issues). I care about the community and the process, and the content could be about a new swingset in a park or a proposed ordinance to prevent dogs from swimming. It doesn't really matter what the content is: the process and community is what is key here. Be honest, be on-topic, work to improve the wiki, and be reasonable in listening to other editor's views. After that, if they simply won't let anybody else edit their work, the format of a community edited wiki probably isn't what they are looking for, and they are the problem, no matter how impressive their contributions have been. -jw
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If this idiot who engaged in vandalising the pages (many of them), made aliases like john-is-a-twat is allowed to put this prankish garbage on the Extending Merseyrail page or Liverpool Waters Page, I will take all of the 14 pages I have written off this wiki. THE IDIOT HAS THEN WON!!! I have had enough of this tooing and froing and you entertaining this idiot as if what he is doing has some credence. Make up your mind I would appreciate a quick answer. - Waterways
Hey Evan. Well this is just great, as half of the stuff Waterways has deleted I put up. Is there any way to restore the pictures? I guess you guys have them on your servers. It was and will never be a PR exercise for FACT, its for the community. Thats why so many new community pages have been created recently. The word petty sprigs to mind. Annoyed does also. Chris @ FACT.
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You DID NOT. What did put up I have to re-write as it was so poor. - Waterways
